Category: Wichita news media

  • Year in Review: 2017

    Year in Review: 2017

    Here are highlights from Voice for Liberty for 2017. Was it a good year for the principles of individual liberty, limited government, economic freedom, and free markets in Wichita and Kansas?

    Also, don’t miss these notable episodes of WichitaLiberty.TV in 2017:

    January

    No one is stealing* from KPERS. No one is stealing from KPERS, the Kansas Public Employees Retirement System. But there are related problems.

    Understanding job growth and the Kansas tax reforms. Commissioned by Kansas Policy Institute and written by researchers from Arizona State University, a new report looks at the Kansas economy after the tax reforms passed in 2012.

    Kansas school employment. Kansas school employment rose slightly for the current school year, and ratios of employees to pupils fell, also slightly.

    Kansas civil asset forfeiture. The law of Kansas civil asset forfeiture is among the worst in the nation, and demands reform.

    In Kansas, the war on blight continues. Kansas governments are trying — again — to expand their powers to take property to the detriment of one of the fundamental rights of citizens: private property rights.

    Fake news, meet fake research. Do you think we have a problem with fake news? Let me introduce you to fake research.

    February

    Analysis of proposed tax changes in Kansas. Proposed changes in the Kansas motor fuel tax and sales tax on groceries affects households in different ways.

    Greater Wichita Partnership. Greater Wichita Partnership features untruthful information on its website, which casts doubt on the reliability of the organization and the City of Wichita.

    Expanding Medicaid in Kansas. Expanding Medicaid in Kansas would be costly, undoubtedly more costly than estimated, has an uncertain future, and doesn’t provide very good results for those it covers.

    In Wichita, the surveillance state expands again. In Wichita, we see another example of how once government starts a surveillance program, it probably won’t produce the promised results, yet will be expanded.

    State and local government employee and payroll. Considering all state and local government employees in proportion to population, Kansas has many, compared to other states, and especially so in education.

    March

    Downtown Wichita tax base is not growing. There’s been much investment in downtown Wichita, we’re told, but the assessed value of property isn’t rising.

    Wichita business property taxes still high. An ongoing study reveals that generally, property taxes on commercial and industrial property in Wichita are high. In particular, taxes on commercial property in Wichita are among the highest in the nation.

    Kansas manufacturing and oil not recovering. While total employment in Kansas is growing, two industries are the exception.

    Highway budget cuts and sweeps in Kansas. A public interest group makes claims about Kansas roads and highways that are not supported by data. It’s not even close.

    Sedgwick County to consider raising debt limit. This week the Sedgwick County Commission will consider raising its limit on borrowing for reasons which need to be revealed, and then carefully examined.

    For Wichita Eagle, no concern about relationships. Should the Wichita Eagle, a city’s only daily newspaper and the state’s largest, be concerned about the parties to its business relationships?

    April

    Fake government spawns fake news. Discussions of public policy need to start from a common base of facts and information. An episode shows that both our state government and news media are not helping.

    Downtown Wichita business trends. There has been much investment in Downtown Wichita, both public and private. What has been the trend in business activity during this time?

    Downtown Wichita jobs, sort of. The claim of 26,000 workers in downtown Wichita is based on misuse of data so blatant it can be described only as malpractice.

    Growth in Downtown Wichita Jobs. Even if we accept the measure of jobs used by the City of Wichita, the trend is in the wrong direction. Citizens should ask for truth and accountability.

    May

    On Wichita’s STAR bond promise, we’ve heard it before. Are the City of Wichita’s projections regarding subsidized development as an economic driver believable?

    Metro Monitor for the Wichita economy. A research project by The Brookings Institution illustrates the performance of the Wichita-area economy.

    Coverage of Downtown Wichita workers. The Wichita Eagle’s coverage of the number of workers in Downtown Wichita isn’t fake news, just wrong news.

    Wichita, Kansas, and U.S. economic dashboards. Dashboards of economic indicators for Wichita and Kansas, compared to the United States.

    June

    The yardstick for the Kansas experiment. A politician’s boasting should not be the yardstick for policy.

    In Kansas, sweeps to continue. Even though the Kansas Legislature raised taxes, sweeps from the highway fund will continue.

    Decoding Duane Goossen. When reading the writings of former Kansas State Budget Director Duane Goossen, it’s useful to have a guide grounded in reality.

    July

    Deconstructing Don Hineman. Another Kansas legislator explains why raising taxes was necessary. So he says.

    More Cargill incentives from Wichita detailed. More, but likely not all, of the Cargill incentives will be before the Wichita City Council this week.

    Wichita WaterWalk contract not followed, again. Wichita city hall failed to uphold the terms of a development agreement from five years ago, not monitoring contracts that protect the public interest.

    Tax collections by the states. An interactive visualization of tax collections by state governments.

    A Wichita social media town hall. A City of Wichita town hall meeting ends in less than nine minutes, with a question pending and unanswered.

    August

    Wichita employment trends. While the unemployment rate in the Wichita metropolitan area has been declining, the numbers behind the decline are not encouraging.

    Wichita in the Wall Street Journal. A Wall Street Journal article reports on Wichita, but there are a few issues with quotes from the mayor.

    Naftzger Park public hearing. On Tuesday August 15 the Wichita City Council will hold a public hearing to consider authorizing spending TIF funds on Naftzger Park.

    In Wichita, not your tax dollars. At a Wichita City Council meeting, citizens are told, “These tax dollars are not your tax dollars.”

    September

    Wichita job growth. Wichita economic development efforts viewed in context.

    Wichita economy shrinks. The Wichita-area economy was smaller in 2016 than the year before.

    Kansas highway spending. A look at actual spending on Kansas highways, apart from transfers.

    October

    Kansas school fund balances. Kansas school fund balances rose this year, in both absolute dollars and dollars per pupil.

    Downtown Wichita report omits formerly prominent data. The new State of Downtown Wichita report for 2017 is missing something. What is it, and why is it missing?

    Living in downtown Wichita. Wichita economic development officials use a circuitous method of estimating the population of downtown Wichita, producing a number much higher than Census Bureau estimates.

    November

    Kansas school spending. New data for spending in Kansas schools is available.

    In Wichita, the surveillance state expands again — and again. In Wichita, we see another example of how once government starts a surveillance program, the urge to expand it is irresistible.

    Wichita personal income up, a little. For 2016, personal income in Wichita rose, but is still below 2014 levels.

    PEAK benefits across Kansas. The use of PEAK, a Kansas economic development incentive program, varies widely among counties.

    December

    NOTA a needed voting reform. “None of the Above” voting lets voters cast a meaningful vote, and that can start changing things.

    Wichita school student/teacher ratios. During years of purported budget cuts, what has been the trend of student/teacher ratios in the Wichita public school district?

    Spirit expands in Wichita. It’s good news that Spirit AeroSystems is expanding in Wichita. Let’s look at the cost.

    Spirit Aerosystems incentives reported. Opinions vary on economic development incentives, but we ought to expect to be told the truth of the details.

    Delano catalyst site. A development near downtown Wichita may receive subsidy through four different avenues.

    Panhandling in Wichita. The City of Wichita cracks down on panhandling.

    Naftzger Park project details. The city has finalized a proposal for a development near Naftzger Park. It includes a few new and creative provisions.

  • Spirit Aerosystems incentives reported

    Spirit Aerosystems incentives reported

    Opinions vary on economic development incentives, but we ought to expect to be told the truth of the details.

    The Wichita Business Journal has reported on the economic development incentives used to cement the Spirit AeroSystems expansion announced last week. Following are some quotes from its article How Wichita won the battle for Spirit AeroSystems’ expansion. Background on the aspects of the deal can be found at Spirit expands in Wichita.

    Wichita Business Journal: “And many aren’t shy about bringing cash to the table as an incentive. In Wichita, in the wake of the defeat at the polls in 2014 of a sales tax measure that would have been used in part for economic development activities, such a war chest isn’t an option.”

    Wichita and Sedgwick County are contributing cash and cash-equivalents to the deal. See below for more.

    Further, the city has other ways to fund a “war chest” of incentives. While the sales tax failed to pass, there was nothing to prevent the city council from raising other taxes (such as property tax or franchise fees) to raise funds for economic development. Now there is a property tax limitation imposed by the state, but there are many loopholes the council could drive a large truck through, including holding an election asking voters to raise property taxes.

    Also, the city justifies spending on economic development incentives by the positive return to the city. That is, for every dollar the city spends or forgoes in future taxes, it receives a larger amount in return. For this project, the analysis provided by Center for Economic Development and Business Research at Wichita State University reports a benefit/cost ratio of 2.75 to one for the city. That is, the city believes it will receive $2.75 for every $1.00 “invested.” If the city truly believes this, it should have no hesitation to issue bonds to fund this incentive, repaying the bonds with the projected benefits.

    Wichita Business Journal: “‘Here … the state, city and county put together a very creative package focused on infrastructure and training,’ [Spirit CEO Tom] Gentile said.”

    I suppose the innovative aspects of the package are the formation of a new business entity to build and own a large building, funded largely by the city and county. Also, the infrastructure referred to may mean the city’s forgiveness of Spirit’s debt to the city regarding a special water project.

    Wichita Business Journal: “The government investment isn’t cash, but it is a way of helping Spirit grow that Gentile said combined with local training opportunities to make the government involvement important to Spirit’s decision to expand in Wichita.”

    According to the agreement the city and county will consider this week, both Sedgwick County and the City of Wichita are contributing cash. The city will also forgive a large debt owed by Spirit. It’s hard to see how canceling a debt is different from giving cash.

    Also, city, county, state, and school district are canceling millions in property and sales taxes that Spirit would otherwise owe, which is also difficult to distinguish from a cash benefit.

    Finally, the state, under the PEAK problem, will likely refund to Spirit the state income tax withheld from their paychecks (minus a small fee).

    Wichita Business Journal: “‘Because Spirit was willing to look at another way of investing, because this community said it was more important to invest in other ways, they’re allowing us to invest in infrastructure instead of handing Spirit cash,’ Wichita Mayor Jeff Longwell said Wednesday. ‘We believe that our community can rally behind that. We’re investing in Spirit and they’re investing in our community.’”

    I’d really like to know the “another way of investing” the mayor mentions. Plus, contrary to the mayor’s assertion, the city is handing Spirit cash. Well, it’s giving cash to a new business entity whose sole purpose is to provide a new building for Spirit. Perhaps for Jeff Longwell that’s a distinction with a meaningful difference. If so, that’s too bad.

    There are differing opinions as to the necessity and wisdom of economic development incentives. But we ought to expect the unvarnished truth from our mayor and economic development officials. It would be great if the Wichita Business Journal helped report the truth.

  • For Wichita Eagle, no concern about relationships

    For Wichita Eagle, no concern about relationships

    Should the Wichita Eagle, a city’s only daily newspaper and the state’s largest, be concerned about the parties to its business relationships?

    It’s a question that the Wichita Eagle should be considering. But the newspaper’s top executives seem to have no concern.

    On February 14 I sent a message to the publisher and executive editor of the Wichita Eagle expressing my concerns about the newspaper’s future landlords. That letter appears below. After several follow-up attempts by email and telephone, neither would respond.

    Sent I sent this message, I’ve found I was mistaken about the ownership of the building to where the Eagle will move and become a tenant. Brandon Steven is not an owner. I had relied on Eagle reporting1 from January, naming Steven as an owner. The reporter confirmed to me that was an error.

    An error in the digital archives of the Wichita Eagle which could easily be corrected.

    Of note, the Eagle portrays itself as a digital entity. One of the things about material published digitally is it can be easily corrected. As of today, the erroneous story from January 3 has not been corrected, even though the reporter knows she made an error.

    Is it important that a newspaper avoid business relationships or entanglements with parties that are frequently in the news? I’ve been told that the Eagle has to rent from someone, and Wichita is a small town. Well, not really. The Eagle owns its current building, which eliminated the relationship with a landlord. And if the newspaper wants to be a rental tenant, it could rent from the many landlords who are not frequent newsmakers, especially those that the Eagle needs to hold accountable.

    This is a sad episode for the Eagle. When Eagle reporters ask someone about uncomfortable topics and the subject does not respond to messages, the newspaper reports that, and in a negative light. Here, the top two executives at the Eagle would not comment on something they may be uncomfortable discussing. I think we deserve a newspaper with greater capacity for self-examination, and one whose executives are responsive to legitimate concerns.

    Following, the message I sent. Note the corrections indicated in footnotes.

    February 14, 2017

    Mr. Roy Heatherly
    Mr. Steve Coffman
    The Wichita Eagle

    I’m writing because I’m concerned about some issues regarding the Wichita Eagle and its news coverage.

    Specifically, I’m concerned about the Eagle entering into business arrangements with the parties who purchased the Eagle building, and then becoming a tenant of the same parties.2

    The three parties are Brandon Steven, Dave Wells, and David Burk. While the Eagle is certainly free to do business with anyone it wants to, these three men are newsmakers that the Eagle has covered in the past, and will likely need to cover in the future.

    Mr. Heatherly, you may remember that last year at a Wichita Pachyderm Club meeting I asked you about the arrest of Brandon Steven (although I did not use his name), and why the Eagle did not cover this news. Other newspapers did, including the Topeka Capital-Journal and The Morning Sun in Pittsburg.3 4 Those newspapers thought the item newsworthy as Steven had recently been an applicant for a Kansas casino license, and factors such as a person’s reputation are relevant to these applications. Many thought it curious that the Eagle did not report this news.

    Regarding David Burk, he is a continual newsmaker in Wichita, and not always in a positive way. A notable incident was his appeal of property taxes on property located within a tax increment financing district, which defeats the purpose of TIF.5 6 Worse, he misrepresented himself as an agent of the city in order to obtain this benefit. When the Eagle reported on this, it rated designation of “special report.” Other than this, Burk is a newsmaker in that he has, for many years, made large and regular campaign contributions to many city council members, and has received much subsidy from the city through many different programs.

    For Dave Wells, a principal of Key Construction, he is often in the news for the same reasons as Burk: Large and continual campaign contributions, and a frequent recipient of subsidy. A particularly troubling matter involving Key Construction and public policy occurred in 2012, regarding the awarding of the contract for the new Wichita air terminal, a contract worth around $100 million. Key was one of the parties pursuing the contract. We learned that Key and its partners were making campaign contributions to one Wichita city council member, Jeff Longwell, immediately before and after he participated in a council vote on awarding the contract to Key.7 Several months later after additional campaign finance reports were filed, we saw that Key made contributions to other council members during the run-up to the contract dispute.8

    When it was announced that the Eagle was selling its building to these parties, I was not comfortable with this transaction. But it was a one-time deal. Later we learned that the Eagle is to become a tenant of the same parties,9 a business relationship that is likely to last for a long time.

    When the Eagle gives these parties free publicity in future news stories, will readers need to be concerned about the motivation for the Eagle printing the stories?

    But more important: When these parties do something wrong, will the Eagle vigorously pursue an investigation? An investigation against its landlord?

    I hope you can understand my concern.

    I would appreciate receiving comments on this matter for a story I am writing for the Voice for Liberty. In addition, if either of you would like to appear on WichitaLiberty.TV to discuss that matter, we can do that too.

    Thank you,
    Bob Weeks


    Notes

    1. Rengers, Carrie. Wichita Eagle signs deal for new downtown headquarters. January 3, 2017. http://www.kansas.com/news/business/article124312049.html
    2. An error. See introduction.
    3. Kansas casino bidder Brandon Steven busted for public nudity. Topeka Capital-Journal, October 1, 2015. http://cjonline.com/blog/tim-carpenter/2015-10-01/kansas-casino-bidder-brandon-steven-busted-public-nudity.
    4. Castle Rock developer arrested. The Morning Sun, October 8, 2015, http://www.morningsun.net/article/20151008/NEWS/151009892.
    5. Developer appealed taxes on city-owned property. Wichita Eagle, February 14, 2010. http://www.kansas.com/news/special-reports/article1024583.html.
    6. Report: Errors made in Old Town Cinema district tax appeal. Wichita Eagle, March 10, 2010. http://www.kansas.com/news/local/article1027324.html.
    7. Sedgwick County Commissioner Karl Peterjohn questions out-of-state contributions to challenger Jeff Longwell. Wichita Eagle, August 1, 2012. http://www.kansas.com/news/politics-government/article1096574.html.
    8. Campaign contributions show need for reform in Wichita. Voice for Liberty, January 11, 2013. https://wichitaliberty.org/wichita-government/campaign-contributions-show-need-for-reform-in-wichita/.
    9. An error. See introduction.
  • The Joseph Ashby Show, revived

    The Joseph Ashby Show, revived

    Joseph Ashby on WichitaLiberty.TV 2015-06-21He’s no longer on AM radio at KQAM, but people still want to hear him. So for now there’s the Joseph Ashby Show podcast.

    There are several ways to listen:

    • Like The Joseph Ashby Show on Facebook. Click here for this. (Be sure to ask for notifications, or at least for posts to show at the top of your newsfeed.)
    • Subscribe to the podcast on Podbean. Click here for this.
    • Follow The Joseph Ashby Show on Twitter. Click on @JosephAshbyShow.
  • Wichita Business Journal editorial missed the news on the Wichita economy

    Wichita Business Journal editorial missed the news on the Wichita economy

    A Wichita business newspaper’s editorial ignores the history of our local economy. Even the history that it reported in its own pages.

    Of the several problems with a Wichita Business Journal editorial, the worst is the author’s view that now, with the result of the David Dennis/Karl Peterjohn election for Sedgwick County Commission, the Wichita area can return to making progress in economic growth. The article is full of phrases like “good news for anyone in Wichita who values the city’s growth” and “We once took pride, in Wichita and in Kansas, in our record of pragmatic, collaborative economic growth.”1

    Chung Report cover image from Facebook 2016-08-08Except: This is not truthful. Making such a claim ignores the evidence. Anyone who pays attention knows economic growth in the Wichita area has lagged for a long time. Even the Wichita Metro Chamber of Commerce belatedly came to this conclusion. Even the Wichita Community Foundation realizes it, having just started a project titled “The Chung Report: Examining Wichita’s Economic Downtown and How We Can Reverse It.”

    None of this should be a secret to the editorial writers at the Wichita Business Journal. Two years ago it reported on, and showed, a chart from the Wichita Chamber that is similar to the chart at the end of this article.2 That chart showed slow job growth in the Wichita area. The Chamber used it to campaign for a new sales tax in Wichita.

    Why don’t Wichita Business Journal editorial writers understand this? Regardless of one’s view on government’s role in economic development, to write as though we’ve had much growth in Wichita is factually incorrect. It’s not responsible.

    An interactive visualization that is the source of the following chart is available here.

    Wichita MSA and other job growth. Click for larger.
    Wichita MSA and other job growth. Click for larger.


    Notes

    1. Wilson, Bill. Kansas, Wichita take a step to the center. Wichita Business Journal, August 5, 2016. Available at www.bizjournals.com/wichita/blog/2016/08/kansas-wichita-take-a-step-to-the-center.html.
    2. Stearns, John. Chamber speakers: Wichita’s red line on jobs recovery a call to action. Wichita Business Journal, February 7, 2014. Available at www.bizjournals.com/wichita/blog/2014/02/chamber-speakers-wichitas-red-line.html.
  • Wichita Eagle, where are you?

    Wichita Eagle, where are you?

    The state’s largest newspaper has no good reason to avoid reporting and editorializing on an important issue. But that’s what the Wichita Eagle has done.

    In November 2014 Wichita voters rejected a proposed Wichita city sales tax. The largest portion of that tax, $250 million, would have gone towards expanding the capacity of the Aquifer Storage and Recharge, or ASR, project.

    The Wichita Eagle editorial board urged voters to approve the tax. It told readers that spending $250 million on ASR would “assure a future for Wichita with enough water.” “The needs are clear,” the editors wrote, adding “Investing in the aquifer project seems the best thing to do to anticipate and meet Wichita’s water needs.” The Eagle warned of “much higher water rates” if the sales tax is not passed.

    Since voters rejected the tax to support that spending, the cost of providing adequate water has dropped, and dropped a lot. But you wouldn’t know that by reading the Wichita Eagle or by relying on our city’s other mainstream news media.

    If you viewed a Wichita City Council workshop on December 1, however, you’d have learned that the city can provide adequate water for much less than $250 million. The rise in water bills will also be much less than what the Eagle and the city used to frighten voters into approving the sales tax.

    So why hasn’t the Wichita Eagle reported on the December 1, 2015 workshop, in which Director of Public Works and Utilities Alan King presented the new plans — plans which will cost much less? Why have there been no editorials celebrating that we can provide adequate water at much less expense?

    I can understand the editorial writers not wanting to admit they had been duped. That’s human nature. But for the news division of the Eagle: Why no reporting on this?

    As it happens, the newsroom of the Eagle was also a cheerleader for the sales tax and ASR project. As an example, the Eagle printed a fact check article that disputed claims made by opponents of the tax. When asked why there was not a similar fact check article on the proponents, the reporter said there were no errors to be found. Nothing. That was incredulous — unbelievable — at the time. There were many questionable claims made by sales tax proponents. In hindsight, we are even more certain of that.

    Tubs of ink the Wichita Eagle could be using to tell us what we need to know.
    Tubs of ink the Wichita Eagle could be using to tell us what we need to know.
    The Eagle has plenty of reporting capacity, barrels of ink, and lots of online bandwith to report and editorialize on issues like who gets free parking at the Wichita airport. That’s important, perhaps, but trivial in terms of financial impact. But on this issue involving over $100 million in savings, there is silence.

    The state’s largest newspaper has no good reason to avoid reporting and editorializing on an important issue. But that’s what the Wichita Eagle has done. We wonder why.

  • Newspaper reports on lack of source for news

    Newspaper reports on lack of source for news

    I wonder if the reporters and editors at Wichita Business Journal can see the rich irony in this article. It reports on a group of business leaders complaining about the lack of information about Wichita.

    I wonder if we’ve forgotten about the role of newspapers, their websites, and mobile apps.

    Emerging Leaders want to know what’s happening in Wichita

    Daniel McCoy, Wichita Business Journal

    Wichita has a lot of great things going on, but how do people find out about them?

    There should be an app for that, say members of the Emerging Leaders program.

    Rather than having to visit a number of individual websites to find out about what’s happening locally, the all-female group of 10 Emerging Leaders who sat down with the WBJ as part of the Breakfast with the Editor series on Friday say Wichita would be well-served to have a single place people can go for a comprehensive list of all the goings on in the community.

    Continue reading at Wichita Business Journal: Emerging Leaders want to know what’s happening in Wichita.

  • Wichita Eagle Publisher Roy Heatherly

    Wichita Eagle Publisher Roy Heatherly

    Wichita Eagle Publisher Roy Heatherly spoke to the Wichita Pachyderm Club on January 15, 2016. This is an audio presentation.

  • Wichita Eagle: Reporting, then research

    Wichita Eagle: Reporting, then research

    Wichita Eagle reporting on a controversy involving religion might leave discerning readers wondering just what is the correct story.

    Wichita Eagle 2015-10-06 01In its article of October 6 titled “News of Wichita State chapel renovation to help Muslims sparks backlash” the Wichita Eagle reported:

    Muslims at Wichita State University wanted a better place to pray. In May, workers renovated the campus chapel and removed the tiny altar and pews.

    WSU administrators thought the change had resolved the problem by giving Muslim students a place to kneel on the floor and pray. Christian students could use portable chairs.

    Everyone on campus seemed satisfied.

    Later in the same article: “Muslims say they feel taken aback. They’d asked for the accommodation in the spring, in part, because they had difficulty finding a prayer space on campus.”

    On October 8, the Eagle reported in “Wichita State president: ‘Grace Chapel can serve the needs of all faiths’”: “The pews were removed by WSU officials after some Muslim students asked that more space be made for them to pray there, in part by kneeling on roll-out rugs.”

    What conclusion should we draw from these two stories? That the renovations were the result of requests by Muslim students? That seems to be what the Eagle reported.

    Wichita Eagle 2015-10-06 02But if you formed that conclusion, you were wrong, evidently. On October 12, this report from the Eagle in the story “Campus minister: Muslims not ones who asked for Wichita State chapel renovations”: “The removal of the pews at Wichita State University’s Grace Chapel — criticized by some as a Muslim takeover of the facility — actually was sought by a Christian campus minister and Christian students who wanted a more flexible worship space, the former campus minister and others said Monday.”

    Here we see a reversal in the story. Renovations weren’t at the request of Muslim students after all.

    Finally, the largest newspaper in Kansas reports on October 29: “Eagle research has found that the request to remove pews and other furnishings from the chapel had originated not with Muslims, but with Christian students and former campus minister Christopher Eshelman, who wanted a more flexible space for their worship services.” (“Wichita State sets Friday town hall on controversy over university chapel”)

    I guess it would have been nice if the Eagle had performed its research before printing the October 6 and 8 news stories. Or, at least the newspaper could acknowledge that its earlier stories were incorrect. I haven’t seen that.